Irwin asks his guest whether she saw his picture in yesterday's edition of the local newpaper. A regional college was using his growing fame to attract international students. The ensuing discussion about Irwin's reputation sets up the first question of the interview:
SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN: Why do you think you're so popular?

STEVE: Nothing to do with my looks, that's for sure! Yeah, I normally get a big croc out in the foreground of any filming.

You know what I reckon it is? My belief is that what comes across on the television is a capture of my enthusiasm and my passion for wildlife. Since I was a boy, from this house, I was out rescuing crocodiles and snakes. My mum and dad were very passionate about that and, I was lucky enough to go along. The first crocodile I ever caught was at nine years of age, and it was a rescue. So now what happens is the cameras follow me around and capture exactly what I've been doing since I was a boy. Only now we have a team of, you know, like 73 of us, and it's gone beyond that.

As the audience, I want you to come with me, right? So we get cameras, every one of us, if we've got a four- or five-man film crew, including myself and Terri. Every one of us can use a camera. I have one in my green backpack that I pull out for the hard-core shots where you've gotta get right in there, so the camera's always right there, in there, while I'm doing my thing. So when I'm talking to the camera, I'm talking to you, in your living room.

We've evolved from sitting back on our tripods and shooting wildlife films like they have been shot historically, which doesn't work for us. So, now it's not just, "Oh look, there's a cheetah making a kill." I want to take you to the cheetah. I want to get in there as close as I can to that cheetah. You'll see me in Namibia getting attacked by a female cheetah, because I didn't know she had cubs, but the cameras are right there in a four-wheel-drive, filming me. She's "grrraagh!" putting mock-charges on, and you get that overwhelming sensation that you're there, that you're with me.
SA: And what do you think your zany attitude does for the viewers?

STEVE: It excites them, which helps me to educate. I believe that education is all about being excited about something. Seeing passion and enthusiasm helps push an educational message. That's the main aim in our entire lives is to promote education about wildlife and wilderness areas, save habitats, save endangered species, etc. So, if we can get people excited about animals, then by crikey, it makes it a heck of a lot easier to save them.

My field is with apex predators, hence your crocodiles, your snakes, your spiders. And then of course you've got lions, tigers, bears. Great big apex predators—they're the species that I enjoy the most. That's where my passion lies. Historically, people have seen them as evil, ugly monsters that kill people. Take the crocodile, for example, my favorite animal. There are 23 species. Seventeen of those species are rare or endangered. They're on the way out, no matter what anyone does or says, you know.

So, my tactic with conservation of apex predators is to get people excited and take them to where they live. Don't hit anyone with a big stick and say, "Don't clear habitats," "Don't do this, don't do that." I'm a realist. I understand that we've got to have trees to build houses, we've got to have roads, we've got to have farming, we've got to have grazing. But I sincerely and vehemently oppose "sustainable use," where people think they can farm crocodiles and kill them, and turn them into boots, bags and belts. Killing any wild animal will never save it, regardless of what anyone says.

STEVE: Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's an absolute disaster that Australia, the government, allowed kangaroo culling. Total disaster.
SA: Some people support moving out some of the cows and sheep and farming kangaroos instead.

STEVE: Oh yeah. I vehemently oppose that. I mean, that is wrong. Australia has already been hit by the bulldozers to grow those cows and sheep. We've got the dams in place, we've got the grazing areas already there. To turn around and say we could farm kangaroos and eat them is an absolute atrocity. Why would you want to eat the Australian icon? Here on the coat of arms is the emu and the kangaroo, the two animals that we want to farm and eat and kill. That's ridiculous. I'm a proud Australian, a very, very proud Australian. I believe that kangaroos and emus need to coexist with grazing areas. That's what has to happen. Anyone who thinks that they can grow kangaroos and get cows off the land is not thinking straight. It won't happen.

What we need to do—and this is my tack right now, in fact I've gone so far that I've bought 2,000 acres to prove this—is that we have to protect our graziers . I'm talking globally, not just Australia. We need to protect our graziers, because they are the biggest landowners of Australia and, quite possibly, the world. OK, so we need to help them fight off the old grazing techniques of, you know, clear-cutting, and we need to promote riverine areas and also have trees in and around grazing areas so that kangaroos have shade, cows have shade. The best grass is in and around those trees. You can have koalas, you can have all your bird species, all your insect species and you've got viable flora, and we still get to eat meat.

SA: Have you ever considered becoming a vegetarian?
I went through a big stage of my life where I thought, you know, maybe it would be better to be a vegetarian, so I researched it. In no uncertain terms did I research it. Let's say this represents one cow, which will keep me in food for, let's say, a month. Now that cow needs this much land and food. Well, you can imagine, that cow needs x by x amount of land, and you can grow trees in it. Around that cow, you can have goannas, kangaroos, wallabies. You can have every other single Australian animal in and around that cow. If I was a vegetarian, to feed me for that month, I need this much land, and nothing else can grow there. Herein lies our problem. If we level that much land to grow rice and whatever, then no other animal could live there except for some insect pest species. Which is very unfortunate.

SA: What about this idea of trying to save wildlife by keeping indigenous animals as pets, to increase their value and as a way to keep more of them alive?

STEVE: Yeah, I don't think it's realistic, and I oppose it. Because the animals that need our help the most—let's take one icon, the koala. No one could look after a koala. They have specialized requirements. One koala needs 300 eucalyptus trees per year, and that's if in good tip. And you need eight different species, so for us to cut for our koalas, we've got a guy on a full-time job.

SA: That's why a sanctuary down in Brisbane has its own plantation—

STEVE: Yeah, a multimillion-dollar plantation, so you know, the general person can't do that. And I don't believe that that is the answer.

SA: What do you see, then, as Australia's biggest environmental issues of the moment?

STEVE: I believe our biggest issue is the same biggest issue that the whole world is facing, and that's habitat destruction. Which gets me to my grazier-can-have-koalas-in-his-paddock strategy. I sincerely believe that there's room for cutting down trees for forestry and grazing, so as we all get to eat. Everyone has to compromise. I think every single person in the world has to compromise. We have to find a compromise and cut down the amount of habitat destruction. Here in Queensland, about five hours west of us, we have the greatest habitat destruction in Australia occurring there right now. Hundreds of acres will go today as we talk.

SA: What will those hundreds of acres go for?
STEVE: For grazing.

SA: So how would you have them go about changing that? If they're just clear-cutting, what would you have them do instead?

STEVE: I'm on it. How I'm trying to fix that is we've got a koala conservation area: 2,000 acres. I've got cows in a certain area, and we're promoting blue-gums and tallows and a couple of other species. Koalas and cows in the same paddy, and then I'll demonstrate how it can be done. I've also got a couple of good mates, really good mates, that are graziers. They're sons of old-school graziers, and slowly but surely they're changing the way we farm this land.

SA: Do you think your strategy can work elsewhere in the world?

STEVE: The big problem that a lot of third-world nations have is currently incurable. I don't know, I'm not sure what we do there, but I'm trying my darnedest to get my show, our show, into every single country in the world—because it works.

STEVE: It's funny isn't it?
SA: Yes, it's really funny. I'm glad you were up for that.

SA to John Stainton, Steve's producer: Was that your idea?

JOHN STAINTON: No, no. Actually, we pushed it, but we were a little bit worried about people thinking that he's been bitten by a snake. But I think everyone's into the joke.

SA: Oh, but I saw that everyone's most frequently asked on your Web site is "Are you still alive?" And believe me, when I first started talking about trying to meet you, people were trying to convince me that you were dead, and I said no, I really don't think so.

STEVE: I'm still here, mate.

SA: I can see that. Great, well, it's good to know. But I wonder about the people who have only some vague sense of who you are. And heaven forbid if they saw your representation on South Park—have you seen that?

STEVE: Yeah, that was hilarious. "I'm going to stick my thumb in this rattlesnake's butt-hole, just to piss it off." I mean, we nearly died laughing.

SA: So it doesn't bother you?

STEVE: Oh, mate! Honestly, I loved that. You know, I'm Australian, and we have got the worst sense of humor. We are cruel to each other. South Park was excellent, really. Imagine how you can back our message, whether the animators agree or not, taking our message to South Park and touching millions of people around the world with animation. And it's not stopping here, mate. What's coming up is unbelievable. We've got running on our own animated series.

SA: Your own animated series?
STEVE: Yeah, yeah, we've got "Croc Hunter," we've got "Australia Zoo: The Documentary," we've got a movie coming up, we've got animation on a roll, we've got another couple of things on the burner, as far as television, as far as big-screen cinemas.

See, I've always seen Jacques Cousteau as a hero, mate. He's a legend—like my dad, just a legend. And so what he did for conservation in the '60s through the '70s was just phenomenal. And I want to be just like him, you know? I want to have a milestone, you know? I want to create history. So we've gone beyond the media that we're working with now, and we're taking the media, we're taking the "Croc Hunter" message, we're taking conservation and the greening of our planet to kids toys, to shirts—you know, our shirts will be an advertisement of conservation. It's like we're taking it to the nth degree. In fact, we probably won't stop there either. If there's another medium where we can just get people excited about conservation we'll take it, we'll run with it.

STEVE: Adrenaline junkie!

SA: Yes, or "adrenaline junkie"? And I wonder if you ever worry about how you can be sure to get your viewers to the next stage where they understand your message. I'm not sure that most people understand that wildlife conservation is what you really do, all day, every day.
STEVE: It doesn't matter how I get 'em, or what they say in the first five minutes. I get called an adrenaline junkie every other minute, and I'm just fine with that. You know what though, mate? I'm doing exactly what I've done from when I was a small boy. You can blame my dad for that, he started it. He created me. He nurtured my instincts and he caused me to be who I am, so I've followed in his footsteps. All I ever wanted was to be my dad, so yeah, I applaud that. Thrill seeker, adrenaline junkie? No problem at all. What difference does it make come the end of the day, I'm achieving, I am actually achieving conservation on a greater level than anyone thought possible, like Jacques Cousteau.

SA: And you think that's because you have this mass media appeal? That gets you toward your goal of being a conservationist?

STEVE: No, think it's because I get into people's hearts. I get in there.

TERRI IRWIN (STEVE'S WIFE): I don't mean to butt in.

SA: Please do. TERRI: It's kind of a funny thing, because I don't think Steve sits down and goes, "Now how am I going to turn these people on?" What happens is just like what happened when we first married. We got a phone call in Oregon that there was a crocodile that needed help. We dropped our honeymoon, we went to north Queensland, and we helped this crocodile and filmed a documentary on the premise that the cameraman just chases Steve around. Steve hadn't been to acting school, he had no preconceived notions. His background was exactly what you see on television, he's done that all his life. We thought we'd do one show. What happened was, it did really well, so we did a part two. And from then on, we found that Steve's natural behavior in the wild happens to be fascinating!

When I first met Steve, as an American tourist coming into the zoo, I fell desperately in love with him and married him immediately.
SA to Steve: By the way, is it true that you were doing a croc-feeding demonstration when she first saw you?

STEVE: Absolutely.

TERRI: When we married, we'd spent less than six weeks together, and I couldn't understand what he was saying. But I found that Steve's passion for wildlife and willingness to lay his life on the line so exciting. What you have in our academic arena is a lot of people who are brilliant at what they do—and boring as the day is long. And you would never sit down and watch a lecture from any of them if you are a football fan, if you like watching Melrose Place, if you tune into your regular soap opera everyday, if you think Jacques Cousteau is still alive—because you don't know anything about documentaries. These are the kind of people that, by default, we are reaching.

And you know what else it is? You've heard of a Spielberg production. You know what a Stainton production is? A John Stainton production is real. It is not a rubber crocodile. It is a guy who out in the bush and he goes, "I think there is a koala around here that needs help." And he'll find a baby koala 60 feet up a telephone pole somewhere . . . .

STEVE: With a pack of dogs trying to eat it.

TERRI: It is the weirdest thing you've ever experienced in your life. We have gone out with a film crew to the Simpson Desert because they wanted to film fierce snakes. One morning, Steve wakes us all up at 5:00 a.m. and says we're going to see a fierce snake at 7:30, let's get going. We drive around . . . .

STEVE: And we got one.

TERRI: So 7:30 comes and goes, right, and we all go, "Hee, hee, there's no fierce snake, and it's 7:30." At 7:32, we saw a fierce snake. Not only that, we saw two of them right together. How he does it? I don't know. But it makes a Stainton production an icon thing. Because Steve can so predictably do what he does so well. I have never before or since seen anybody in my life with this gift for wildlife.

So the fact that he publishes and he sits out and does field study and that he knows the Latin name of everything is boring. And this eight-year-old kid who's keen on animals doesn't give a rip about any of that. So what we've found is that the television shows are appealing to these people, and Steve happens to make a great role model. He's an Australian who doesn't drink. He doesn't smoke. He has a wonderful family, and he drags us all over the world. The only time I'm here on my own running the zoo is when he goes to Africa or Indonesia, because of the malaria risk to Bindi . Bindi's been on 127 plane flights, she's been to America 10 times, she just got back from Western Samoa this month, and we're going to the States next month.

The thing is, Steve's a great role model, and he won't sit there and tell you that. He won't tell you that, while in the scientific world a lot of the things that are going on are very necessary and important, the reality is that you're going to have kids from eight to 80 going, "This animal that I was scared of—it's cool! That snake in the back yard? Check it out!" Instead of just going WHACK, WHACK, WHACK and killing it, people are now interested in it. We're reaching kids, we're reaching new generations, we're reaching people who never gave a rat's patootie about wildlife or conservation.
All Steve wants to do is save these animals. He lives it, he breathes it, he sleeps it. He gets up at 3:30 every morning to go to work because he's so wired. He doesn't drink coffee because he's too wired. His head would blow off if he drank coffee. That is what I think is so exciting about the show. And if someone says, "Aren't you an adrenaline junkie?" Great! You do a TV show. How many people are going to watch you? Nobody. So let's get the message through with this exciting person who can be sent up on Saturday Night Live and South Park. He's a nut! This is what's so exciting about him. And, he looks really great in short shorts!

STEVE: They're not short! They're normal shorts.
SA: For an Aussie, maybe.

TERRI: But I just wanted to throw that in.

STEVE: I could get the short shorts out of the closet. I never thought you thought that my shorts were short.

SA: She's an American, she knows.

TERRI: I am the business side, I am the marketing and promotion side. I'm the straight man who plays off of the wild man. I'm Jane, he's Tarzan. It's always been like that. But I think that that is the spice of life. That is what's so exciting, and that's why people tune in. They tune in 'cause they want to see this guy die or get badly hurt. And instead they get a message about wildlife, and they get see a guy who says, "Isn't this rattlesnake beautiful?" Who else says that?

STEVE: Yeah, I've been accused of that by everybody, in every country. However, several times a show--I don't know how often--but I'm continually saying, "I'm a professional" and "I've been doing this since I was born." I was born into it, and my apprenticeship's been 38 years, and I seem to be going on and on about that. I'm doing it all the time in the field, and it's John's job to edit it up and make sure that it's a happy medium of how often it's said or when it's said--because what I'm doing is more dangerous than a stick of dynamite. You know, you can touch a stick of dynamite, but if you touch a venomous snake it'll turn around and bite you and kill you so fast it's not even funny.

TERRI: You'll never see them showing a car race on television and say, "Don't drive like this." You'll never see them showing a movie where they go in and shoot everybody and then say, "Don't do this at home." I challenge you to find a documentary where David Attenborough's being chased by an elephant seal saying, "Don't get between an elephant seal and the water." I think we're the only ones that say that, and to date, the mail that I've gotten has been like the woman up in Brisbane whose little boy had been bitten by a death adder. But because she had seen "Suburban Killers" and knew first aid with snake bites, not only did she not panic, her little boy didn't panic. They put a pressure bandage on, he went to hospital, and he lived to see another day. She said if she hadn't seen our show, her little boy probably would have died.

STEVE: Nothing is more important than that small boy's life, and I'm very proud that I would've had a hand in saving him. I've probably saved thousands of peoples' lives with my educational message on snake bites, how to get in around venomous anything. Yeah, I'm a thrill seeker, but crikey, education's the most important thing.

SA: John mentioned that you just did a shoot for the TV series Survivor. What were they having you do?

STEVE: Yeah, they tapped into my head for the potential dangers of some of the Australian animals that they're going to be confronted with, and I went through the immobilizing pressure bandage technique, all of that.

SA: So you were helping them understand what they needed to watch out for to keep their cast safe?

STEVE: Absolutely. Not just them, everyone. There's a mini-city being built, and so they are in prime snake habitat, and a few crocs, but nothing's really going to hurt them, but yeah, I touched on a lot of that. You know, ice on certain spider bites, what to look for, how to avoid it. People tap into me for my expertise on trying to stay alive. And you know, I really do try to tell kids, "Don't do what I do."

JOHN STAINTON (STEVE'S PRODUCER): You know, I think that message is strong. We do look at all the e-mails and I tell you, if there were a strong message coming out that we're getting the wrong message out, we would change.

TERRI: By the same token, we want to encourage people to do what Steve is doing. If somebody says, "I'd like a career in wildlife but I'm not smart enough," or "I'm not rich enough," or "I don't have time to do it " or whatever the excuse is, we do a lot of lecture work with students right up to seniors on, "Don't let anything stand in the way from following your heart and doing what you want to do." So while we still say, "Be careful, don't do this, he's an expert," off camera, we do a lot of lectures about pushing your limits. And Steve's a good icon for that.

STEVE: No matter where you go and what you do in America, you turn the tele on and you're confronted with violence. I think we're instrumental in giving kids something very exciting to look at—so I do catch western diamondbacks—but I talk to the kids of Arizona and say, "Please don't play with western diamondbacks like I do." I think that's a heck of a lot safer than a kid watching or playing a video game where you're killing all the time.

STEVE: The only animals I'm not comfortable with are parrots, but I'm learning as I go. I'm getting better and better at 'em. I really am.

SA: What did you say?

STEVE: Parrots.

SA: No way!

STEVE: Yeah, for some reason parrots have to bite me. That's their job. I don't know why that is. They've nearly torn my nose off. I've had some really bad parrot bites.

SA: But don't you have to spend a certain amount of time researching the striking distance of a new snake that you haven't worked with before?

STEVE: No, snakes are no problem. I'd go to any country, anywhere, any snakes, not a problem. Snakes are just very instinctive to me. I've been playing with snakes since before I could walk. It doesn't matter where or what it is, from the biggest to the most venomous. Sharks, I've been self-trained as well, and crocodiles, naturally. I've been catching them since I was nine. No problem.

I went to Africa, so I did a lot of research on lions. I'd already had little bits and pieces to do with them here and there around the ridges, but I went to the books, I got the videos, and bang! I went to Africa. Pretty soon, within a half an hour, I'm going, "Wait a minute. These lions don't see me as a food source. They see me as a threat." So I mentioned this to the crew and we all stood up and went "Rah!" and ran away. It's a definition that they're scared. And it's because people have been on two legs and hunting them with guns for the last hundred years. It's easy for me to work it out, but I guess because of my instincts. You'd be better off getting it from Terri.

TERRI: Yeah, I'll tell you a good story. What's weird about Steve is that he'll research everything, "This is the ABC of how this animal is. Anyone who handles a black mamba is a bloody idiot." So he goes in and he picks up this 12-foot black mamba and talks about it and removes it from the village so the villagers didn't have to risk their lives killing it or it doesn't kill them.

STEVE: Seven people have been killed by black mambas in and around that village. They were really scared of it, so I took it out.

TERRI: So Steve's like community service. That's the gift. Just like with the orangutans in Sumatra. The ranger who works with the orangutans always said, "Do not go anywhere near the orangutans and their territory." But Steve saw a mother orangutan in a tree with a baby and said, "Gosh, she's so beautiful. I just want to get up near her so we can get me and the orangutan in the shot and I can tell about how they have a baby every four years and all this interesting, fascinating stuff."

I told Steve, "If you climb up there, will rip your head off. She's like eight times the strength of a man! She's got a baby. What are you, nuts?"

"Well, I'll just go up to here so we can get them both in the shot and we'll just see," he tells me. He climbs up the tree part way, the mother orangutan with the tiny little baby climbs down, sits by Steve holding onto her baby. The baby walks away, and grabs the baby by the head or whatever and pulls it back over, "No, you've gotta stay here." Pretty soon she's looking at Steve and she goes , and then she's going at him with her lips like this , which is gravy. And you can see Steve going back . . . .

STEVE: Seven times stronger than a human.

TERRI: . . .And she's diggin' on Steve. She likes him. The ranger has never seen this in his entire life, so you explain it. You explain the gift. It's the weirdest thing you've ever seen. So when you talk about certain animals it doesn't matter what it is. I've seen him walking with orangutans after having never experienced something like that before. The mother comes down with her tiny baby—the little bald thing with the hair sticking out like a chicken—brings the little baby down and falls in love with him. The little baby orangutan was up to his armpits up Steve's shorts, and it made him squeal. That was the funniest thing.

STEVE: That was funny!

TERRI: And then he peed on him. They loved him. I don't know why—they'd bite my head off.

STEVE: Good question. There's a lot of research behind the scenes that you don't get to see, but I have an instinct that my dad nurtured from when I was born. I was very lucky then.

SA: Do you think it's because you don't show fear? Is that a big part of it?

STEVE: That might have a lot to do with it, but you know, I probably don't show fear, but I suffer from fear like everyone else. You know, there's a fear aspect for me that happens all the time. Like today you'll get to see me work with the crocodiles. I've had a bit of a go with my 16-footer, I've had a bit of trouble with him , so I'm going to go in with him today at 1:30. If you're still here, it's worth hanging around for.

SA: Definitely.

STEVE: I'll go into it all in the demo, but when I step in there, there's a certain fear trigger. And that's what keeps me at a safe distance. Because when they strike it can be that quick that if they're within range, you're dead, you're dead in your tracks. And his head weighs more than my body so it's WHACK! , and I'd just blow up. It's that powerful. So fear helps me from making mistakes, but I make lot of mistakes. I mean, these are all just little pink bits here (pointing at his arm) and are just curing up now. I've been recently filming a nine-and-a-half-foot female crocodile I had to catch. Oh, man, she bit me up! That was a mistake.

SA: And what about those?

STEVE: Aw, these are just coral cuts, but these pink ones here, you can see them out in the light, had a tooth went up to my knuckle and snapped off.

SA: OK, ow.

STEVE: Yeah, and I had another one go through there. Anyway, blah blah blah. What happened was, we had to catch her, we had no choice. Johnny had his cameras all ready and all that, it was bad. Oh boy, she got me, she's just head-butting and carrying on, and you know I came out of it with these big bruises and I couldn't really do anything the next day and it's taken, what, three weeks, months to heal up? And these are just mistakes, you know? But I put my life on the line to save animals. I have no fear of losing my life—if I have to save a koala or a crocodile or a kangaroo or a snake, mate, I will save it.

STEVE: When the East Timor conflict broke out, when they gained independence, the militia killed a lot of East Timorese people. And their sacred totem is the crocodile. They believe that their island is actually a solidified crocodile, so it has sacred status. My dad taught me from my youngest childhood memories through these connections with Aboriginal and tribal people that you must always protect people's sacred status, regardless of the pest. Even if it's different to the way us Western people look at it. So we took on board the problem that they had in East Timor, and that means thousands of people killed and refugees, and these two crocodiles had been really badly looked after. They were kept in a cess-pit of bacteria and disease.

SA: Were they kept in captivity because they are a totem, or was there a zoo there?

STEVE: Yeah, they were virtually a totem thing that they were kept for, and they didn't know how to look after them. This female, she lost an eye, and there was actually talk of body parts being fed to them. You know, there were all sorts of atrocities attached to these two crocodiles.

SA: Where were they?

STEVE: One was in a church, which was lucky because that church never got blown up, and the other one was just in a cess-pit over next to an area where they burned all these bodies. So the Australian diggers went in—that's the Australian armed forces—the diggers just went, "Oh my gosh." So they gave them water and food and kept them alive until we and WSPA got there.

SA: WSPA? What is that?

STEVE: The World Society for the Protection of Animals. They got involved and so did the diggers and ourselves. We went in and were going, "Okay, what are we going to do?" There was talk of bringing the crocodiles back to Australia, and I said that is not an alternative because these animals have sacred status. We need to take a stand here, construct a new set of state-of-the-art enclosures to hold those crocodiles so the East Timorese maintain the sacred status of these animals and they can come and look at them.

So we went about the building, which was very difficult. In fact, those two crocodile enclosures we built were the first things to be rebuilt in East Timor. The project was organized by the Australia Zoo team—funded by us, built by us—and we're very proud of it. And then we went in and we shifted them, both the female and the male. And I'll tell you what, the male, Anthony, he beat us up bad. He's a very angry boy, and he was just so hard to catch. The vision that you see on the tele just doesn't represent how badly he tried—he was a naughty boy. Anyway, we got him in there, we trained the local people to look after them properly because they had no idea, no concept about humane and clever techniques to look after crocodiles.

SA: Even as they're sacred to them?

STEVE: Yeah, no idea at all. Heck no, they had no idea. But we changed all that. Terri put together thousands of dollars towards the church to build a new medical center, because Terri in all her wisdom spotted a flaw in our plan in that the tens of thousands of dollars that we were putting towards the crocodiles, regardless of their sacred status, may have caused a problem with the local people because, "Why is all the money going to the crocodiles and not to us?"

SA: That's a good question.

STEVE: Yeah, it's a great one. So Terri got this huge amount of money and we gave it to the church leader, so they can build their medical center, so everything was addressed and they're flourishing, mate, they're doing really well. And it was one of the greatest rescues I've ever been involved with, but by crikey, it was hard.

* Educate the Children
* Time-Capsule Endangered Animals
* Protect Wildlife Habitats

SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN: What can be done to curtail habitat destruction in countries like Indonesia?

STEVE: Currently it's incurable. But our shows are going over there.

SA: You mean the habitat destruction is incurable?

STEVE: How are we going to stop it when the majority of people are below the poverty line and many have got disease? And there's a lot of problems in the government, with the corruption and stuff that has been going on. And the people are killing each other down in East Timor. Wherever you've got this in-house fighting, crikey, habitat's all of a sudden, "Yeah, who gives a rip."

EDUCATE THE CHILDREN
TERRI: What we found, for example, was a lot of focus just on building things. And making our contribution to the church . We were very proud of that, but then what people are forgetting is that is a very long-term process.

Everyone's worried about feeding the children and clothing the children and medicating the children, but they're forgetting that they're children. So we took rubber snakes and squeaky crocodiles, and now all of a sudden the children are finding the little squeaky crocodiles are their fun things. They held on to them, they would trade them for a little snake, they were proud. We didn't give them little teddy bears and cars. We gave them little animals to be proud of and excited about. I think that it is a long process, but that it is a start. And like with our shows, we're not cramming it down their heads, it's becoming cool, and it's a whole new thought process.

We've dealt with countries, like Fiji, where some of the tribes we've worked with have no word for conservation. They have no concept for numbers above a hundred. So it's a completely different approach. So from here on, with our third-world projects, we are looking at the people as well as the animals. And when we ask, "How do you save a habitat?" maybe the first rule is letting have full bellies and healthy children. And then starting to make the animals a cool thing to be proud of instead of something to simply consume or make money out of.

STEVE: In 30 years' time, those squeaky little crocodiles that we gave them are going to pay huge dividends.

TERRI: It seems trivial, but it's a starting point. You've got to completely change the culture. TIME-CAPSULE ENDANGERED ANIMALS

STEVE: Excellent point. In addition to that, in the big scheme of Indonesia, where there seems to be such rapid habitat destruction, there is a new zoo strategy, which here in Australia we're taking very seriously. It's a regional approach, and Indonesia is part of our region. So any of the animals that are endangered or likely to become extinct because of habitat destruction, we're pulling them into zoos—predominantly rescuing the animals that are going to die anyway—and housing them, learning every single detail about how we can breed them and establishing satellite colonies of that species so that we're ready when the cure does come, when we can rebuild habitat. That's what we're doing.

SA: Is Australia Zoo part of that regional effort?

STEVE: Yeah, yeah. All of the good zoos in our world are taking regional approaches. Those that aren't doing it need to pick up their act or get out. Because that's what a zoo needs to be. We have to be educational facilities with the ability to put animals back in the wild when the critical stage is over.

TERRI: That's why we're talking about time-capsuling so many turtle species, because you've got such a market for the terrapins throughout Asia for medicine, for food and so forth. Wild ones are better than captive ones so you can't farm them. And when it comes to sustainable use, it blows it out the window because everyone is greedy. So, like communism, it works on paper but in real life it doesn't work.

Instead of taking a certain number of turtles every year, let's take 'em all out of the wild. And lets keep them for 10 years or 100 years or 300 years, until the thought process in Asia has changed and we are no longer looking at turtles for medicine. So on a band-aid-type proposition, let's time-capsule these animals.

PROTECT WILDLIFE HABITATS
TERRI: The third stage is that there isn't any animal in a new exhibit that you're going to see in the Australia Zoo today that we don't have a habitat for. Right now we've got Tasmanian devils.

SA: That you buy habitat for?

TERRI: We're looking at purchasing habitat in Tasmania to preserve these special creatures. It will continue like that wherever we can. Use as education, interaction, breeding research—all of that. Conserve the habitat, and then educate the people. It's this three-prong approach. We no longer want to make the responsibility of the zoo as simply having the animals on display for your education and entertainment. It has to go far beyond that. What you see here is the tip of a very big iceberg.

STEVE: I believe sustainable use is the greatest propaganda in wildlife conservation at the moment. This propaganda has been established by some very credible, very powerful players, and it seems to me that people are using the camouflage of science to make money out of animals. There are people currently saying that they're whaling for scientific purposes. That is just . . . if I think about it too long I'll cry, mate, because I've seen it and it's not working and it's a lie. So, whenever they're killing our animals and calling it sustainable use, I'll fight it because this is just my own personal opinion.

SA: How would you get people, like the villagers in Zimbabwe, involved with wildlife conservation, then?

STEVE: The way we're doing it is to get people passionate and proud of the wildlife in their backyard. What you're talking about is strictly people killing elephants in their backyard. I will never blame the villager in Zimbabwe for going out and killing an elephant and taking its ivory to feed his family. His family does have to be fed, but all that sustainable use is doing is promoting illegal poaching of wildlife around the world! For goodness' sakes, so people can have fancy chopsticks and make stamps? What the heck do we need ivory for?

Back in the '70s we finally got on top of people killing and wearing spotted cat species. Only now they've turned to an animal that has been known to kill people, and that's the crocodile. My question is: what the heck do we need crocodile-skin boots for? We don't need that crap! And there are people out there right now killing this world's elephants. For what? Sustainable use? My goodness, what do we need ivory and croc-skins for? We don't need them. We've already got cows, chickens, turkeys, ducks, sheep. We've already got domestic animals, we don't need to kill and eat our wildlife or wear it. I will die fighting sustainable use because I believe it's propaganda, and I'd like to see it stopped.

I don't have answers or a cure for all the world's problems, but this is my belief that if you watch a Croc Hunter episode, what you're seeing are some people who are very passionate and enthusiastic about their work. We believe in what we do. And so if you come away with that, with an awareness of wildlife, then it will be that much easier for us and the academic people of our world to help conserve wilderness and wildlife areas—which in essence is going to save mankind.

Because if we have polluted seas, no whales, no rain forests, fewer trees, we'll never breathe oxygen, we'll never be able to drink the water. So the human race will just be destined to an end. So by watching my shows, you're actually helping the human race. That's what I believe.

TERRI: Can you talk about the gorilla-friendly bananas?

STEVE: Go ahead, sweetheart.

TERRI: Steve has some great ideas up his sleeve. Personally, I would pay more for a banana if I knew that the farmer allowed a certain number of his bananas to be taken by gorillas instead of shooting the gorillas that came down and ravaged his crops. So we think that there should be a global marketing campaign for wealthy nations to directly support poorer nations by promoting gorilla-friendly bananas. I'd happily pay up the wazoo for a gorilla-friendly banana, because I know I'm helping the farmer that didn't shoot the gorilla.

This is one of the ideas that makes me think Steve is just embarking on his wildlife campaign. He's 38 years old; he's still got a few years left in him.

STEVE: I haven't hit mid-stride yet. I've got a long way to go, I really do.

TERRI: If we're going to be doing movies and bigger productions and trying to reach more people, and if we do things smart, then let's make enough money that we can then promote these ideas and put them into practice. Eventually, I think sustainable use will be a thing of the past. Instead of killing to "help" them, we'll actually leave them alone, and all of us who dig that idea and who can afford it can pay more and help the local farmers.

STEVE: You're gonna get a lot of flack when you put this in Scientific American. People are just gonna go off.

SA: What do you predict they're going to say?

STEVE: Oh, mate, that "Steve Irwin doesn't know what he's talking about," "That's one man's view against a successful sustainable use, blah blah blah." But what Terri's talking about, and what we believe, is that we've got to make a difference here. What we need to do instead of killing gorillas is we need to have more habitat. How do we get more habitat? Well, we've got to get it into the farming arena. The farmers hate the gorillas. They'll actually kill the gorillas because they come into the farms and eat their bananas.

So who do we need to help? We've got to help the farmers. If we help the farmers, then we help the gorillas. The farmer loses 50 percent of his bananas to gorillas, but suddenly the bananas that are left are worth a heck of a lot of money, because gorillas are coming in. And we back that idea with our gift, which is vision. So I go there to the banana farm and film the gorillas and get whacked over the head by a big silver-backed gorilla and everyone wins. It's a no-risk situation.

Whether it be the grazier in Texas or the wheat-and-sheep farmer in western Australia or the banana farmer in Cameroon, that is my mission.

SA: Is your plan to integrate wildlife habitats with farmland working?

STEVE: Oh, we're on a roll.

TERRI: If all the wildlife products are illegal, enforcement will become possible instead of impossible.

STEVE: Yeah. Here, here.

TERRI: And then everything we do with the animals becomes a positive thing instead of this "oh no, we have to kill 35 rhinos instead of helping them." See what I mean? But I'm talking it's gonna take 20 years to get it get it off the ground because it's going to be a global marketing program that will cost us millions of dollars getting everyone's opinions behind us, like they did with dolphins and tuna.

SA: I'd buy gorilla-friendly bananas.

STEVE: Why wouldn't you, mate? One way every single person can contribute to conservation is by buying a product that is animal friendly. And if we don't have open debate about these issues, then crikey, how are we going to move quick? We've got to move quick in this world because we're running out of it. We're running out of this world, and I want for my children to be able to walk into the bush and still see oragutans. If we can't have that, then it's going to be a sad world to bring up kids.

"I have to, you know, I love my crocs," Irwin explains. "My wife's not bad, but I love my crocs." His joke elicits a chuckle from the group, including Terri, so I'm surprised when his expression turns more serious. "But we've got problems with my biggest croc, Acko," he says.

SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN: Problems because he's sick?

STEVE: He's not sick. He's fussy, and he's angry. He hates me.

SA: He's the one who hates you?

STEVE: He's one of the ones who hates me. Righty-o. During the course of the Olympic Games , we've had record attendance here at the zoo.

SA: Oh, you have?

STEVE: It's been phenomenal. Aw, mate, we've gone off the Richter scale. You'll even see today, it'll be packed. So Acko has got his nose out of joint because the staff's been in a hurry and there's been lots of people. We've turned his heater off and he's coming out of winter and his girl isn't responding to his—he wants to mate with her but she's not that keen upon it—so I need to go in there and see if I can stimulate a territorial response in him and get him back on track. He's getting blasé.

SA: So riling up the animals has a certain value?

STEVE: Oh, absolutely, mate, riling them up. He hates me because I caught him out of the bush. Everyone for 20 years tried to kill him, so I went out there and I caught him. What a shame to pull the king out of his domain. That is just . . . it's a shock. Anyway, I cried long and hard at my camp when I caught that croc. It was just so disappointing that I had to catch him out of his bush. I did it because otherwise, he'd be dead. Dead as a maggot.

Twenty years they'd been trying to shoot him because he's a big croc. Anyway, I saved his life. And now I owe him. He's lost his zest, he's lost his territorialism. He's the biggest croc in here , and if you look in the natural environment the biggest croc is the king. And so my job is to try and get him back on track where he's like, "Yeah, I am the biggest, toughest thing in here." I'm feeble compared to him, and he just needs to see my ugly head again and go, "Yeah, I hate you," and push me out. And that will instill territorialism back in him.

TERRI: Steve is trying to induce a form of "good" stress. If you keep an animal in a type of "vacuum-packed" little area that is stress-free, they are like all of us through our daily lives: what we really dig is a little excitement, you know? We're now looking into "good" stress. Steve's been doing that with his folks here at the zoo for 30 years. When he goes in with the crocodiles, the crocodile tries to jump up and kill him. The croc wants to eat him and crush him in half. He comes launching out of the water, he tries new angles, once in a while he gets something—a brush hook, a shovel, a lawnmower—and he drags it back in the water and kills it. So not only does he get a feed for his efforts, but eventually Steve leaves. And you watch the male crocodile go up to the female and go, "Yeah, I put him out!"

STEVE: And now I'll mate with ya!

TERRI: And you watch her right after the demo because all of sudden she's so turned on 'cause he drove this thing out of the—

STEVE : I'm the ugly monster, and he drove me out his territory. This is like Pat Rafter, you know, the famous Australian tennis player. If he didn't win, he loses, yeah? And what happens when you lose? You're stressed. But that's good stress 'cause that makes him want to be trying even harder.

TERRI: When he wins, he gets lucky!

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April 17, 2001
Interview with Crocodile Hunter Steve Irwin
Everyone's favorite crocodile wrestler goes to the mat for animals
By Sarah Simpson
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleid=00067984-6FE2-1C70-84A9809EC588EF21